Can Science Slow Aging? | David Donnelly

For decades, aging was seen as inevitable — a slow and irreversible decline. But a growing number of scientists now believe we may be entering a turning point, with research increasingly focused on extending not just how long we live, but how well we live.

In the documentary Forever Young, filmmaker David Donnelly — alongside producers Dr. James Johnson and Dr. Thomas Lewis — explores the rapidly evolving world of longevity science, from biological clocks and AI-driven research to the power of lifestyle, purpose, and social connection.

The film also confronts some of the field’s biggest questions: what aging actually is, whether it should be treated as a disease, and who stands to benefit if the science succeeds. In this conversation with Peter Bowes, Donnelly reflects on skepticism, scientific disagreement, and why he believes humanity may already be living through a longevity revolution.

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Transcript

David Donnelly: 0:00

I was incredibly frustrated through, I'd say, the first couple years of making the film. And I think the primary reason is that these scientists couldn't agree on anything. They couldn't agree on what aging is. They couldn't agree on what causes it. The only thing they could agree on was that this is a revolution.

Peter Bowes: 0:24

Hello again. Welcome to the Live long podcast. I'm Peter Bowes. This is where we explore the art and science of living long and well. Now, for many of us, perhaps most of us, aging has long been seen as inevitable, a slow decline, largely beyond our control. But could we be approaching a turning point in how we understand growing older, with scientists increasingly focused on extending not just lifespan, but healthspan.

Forever Young Film: 0:54

The quest to live longer is one of the great quests of humanity.

Peter Bowes: 0:58

The recently released documentary Forever Young, explores the rapidly evolving world of longevity science, from AI driven research and biological clocks to the role of lifestyle, social connection, and mindset. Written and directed by David Donnelly, the film also confronts some of the field's biggest questions and controversies; what aging actually is, whether it should be treated as a disease, and who ultimately benefits. If we do learn how to significantly age better and live longer. David, welcome to the podcast.

David Donnelly: 1:35

Thanks for having me.

Peter Bowes: 1:36

You have made documentaries in the past about the digital world, digital culture, classical music. What prompted you? What piqued your interest in the the world of human longevity?

David Donnelly: 1:49

Yeah, it's I definitely don't have the, the filmmaker resume of, making a documentary about longevity.

Peter Bowes: 1:56

Maybe that was just as well. Maybe that's a good thing.

David Donnelly: 1:58

No, I think that's why I was so passionate about getting into it, because it was all very new to me. I think like a lot of people, I just started to see all of the stuff pop into my feet about longevity this term that I think just started. You started to hear it everywhere. You know, maybe at some point during the pandemic around then is kind of when I really just started being like, okay, like, what is the deal on this stuff, you know? And immediately I was like, well, how much of this is BS? And so then I just kept digging and digging and I was like, this is, this is really interesting. What's happening? And if even a fraction of it is real, then we're living through a historical moment. And I wanted to document it. And when we started to go on this journey, we had no idea where it was going to end up. It wasn't like we had a script. it was independently financed, so there wasn't any kind of agenda. really the goal was to see where the story took us. And a big part of that is where the science would take us. And so our first shoot was at the Buck Institute, which is nestled in the hills of Novato, California, this very inspiring cathedral like structure. And after the first three days of filming there, I was like, wow. I mean, this thing is real. I just met so many scientists there. And of course, Doctor Verdin, who you've you've had as a guest on your show, the CEO and of the Buck Institute. And I was just blown away by what they were accomplishing and also how I've never heard of them before and how most people had never heard of them, especially, you know, three, three and a half years ago when we did the initial round of interviews. And I walked out of there as a believer that there was something really special happening. And that's how it kicked off. And several years later, now, now we've got a feature length documentary, Forever Young.

Peter Bowes: 3:50

Yeah, and it's a great watch. You mentioned independently financed, and I understand why that is important to you, because I think one of the issues with the whole, if you want to call it the longevity space, is where does the money come from and who is making money from the various, the many, many products that are now on the market encouraging people to, to do this, that or the other with the potential of extending their lives. And you've always got to join the dots between where the money comes from and the what the so-called expert is telling you that might improve your life. I guess that at the beginning must have been important to you to set that aside as, as an issue that you're not being influenced by any of the people that you interview for the documentary.

David Donnelly: 4:31

I went into it as a skeptic, deliberately. And I think it's important that, you know, we weren't sponsored by a vitamin company to make the documentary or that there's, there's not some kind of, you know, secret that we're trying to sell or, you know, miracle drug that we're promoting. It's incredibly important because the distrust that consumers have for longevity science in particular, is one of the things that we cover in the story, and something I realized very early on is so important, and we hope with the film that we can distill all the madness and the chaos that is constantly filling up your feed and help regain that trust by showing people the fundamentals and introducing them to scientists that they might not have heard of. because as you know, a lot of the scientists that are doing great work, they're not good at social media, they don't have a million Instagram followers. And, you know, they probably shouldn't. I mean, you know, a lot of the it's, it's if you're a really great scientist, maybe you're not going to be good at the PR part of the marketing part. And so we really wanted to shine a light on this amazing cast of people that I think, you know, are going to be in the history books, down the road.

Peter Bowes: 5:42

The film gives the impression of, I think you've actually just reflected it in what you've just said, that we're at an inflection point, that we're at a tipping point in terms of not only the research, but perhaps the public awareness and the fact that we are really beginning to learn things that can actually benefit us, rather than the sci fi aspect of living long. And some people would say living forever, that it's it's becoming, it feels real now that maybe at one point it didn't.

David Donnelly: 6:11

Yeah. I mean, I couldn't agree more. you know, you talk on your show a lot about the difference between healthspan and lifespan. And it was really important for us in the film that we distinguish between the two, because there are different groups of people that often get lumped up, to be in the same category of longevity. But there are people that are trying to extend lifespan. And I think that's important for people to really push the boundaries and the limitations of what's possible as humans. You know, the people that are trying to go to the moon biologically, I think it's great. It's raises awareness about what's possible. It makes us think big. But healthspan is not the same thing as lifespan and the people that are extending healthspan. These are incremental changes that we see through just the grind of science and study, and it's easy to get the two confused. So if you read about someone that is trying to extend lifespan so that we can live to 150 or, you know, forever, or the singularity at some point, that's a fascinating conversations and important work, but it's not the same work as a lot of the scientists in the film who are really just trying to give you an extra decade or plus of quality time with the people that you care about, where you're mobile to, where you know, your, your brain is still healthy and, that you can enjoy more time, with, with the people that you care about.

Peter Bowes: 7:38

And healthspan obviously it is the, and we talk about it a lot, the number of years that you can live essentially without those chronic diseases that most of us will inevitably get at some point, but it's just extending the amount of time that we are not disease free, totally, but free of those potentially killer diseases that come along later in life. Were you aware of that as a as a word, as a phrase? Healthspan when you launched into this?

David Donnelly: 8:03

No. No I wasn't. Like I said, I really went into this is a skeptic. you know, my prior, I've always been interested in the merger of technology and culture, which was my last film, The Cost of Convenience. and before that, I spent, you know, more than a decade going on tour with classical musicians. What I really like doing as a storyteller is kind of immersing myself into new worlds and, you know, classical music to be backstage and to, get a sense of what's that like? and that lifestyle and the travel and the excitement. that's not something that I would typically associate with classical music until having those experiences. And I wanted to share that with other people and how that had an impact on my life and hopefully inspire other people, with The Cost of Convenience. It's the same thing. Meeting all these people who are devoting their lives to trying to create regulations that can protect our our minds. And sure enough, now look. Look at the lawsuits that we're seeing with social media and everything else. And the science is starting to catch up. this, you know, forever young. This project has a lot of these cultural elements in it. And in some ways it's, you know, the next step of, of connecting this digital world to our bodies in some way. A lot of the stuff that we're seeing is fueled by artificial intelligence. They're running virtual experiments at a pace that could never be reproduced, in real time. And we're seeing breakthroughs happen at unprecedented pace. We're seeing hundreds of research papers just constantly coming out. it's, it's so exciting. And it's also overwhelming. And that's what we wanted to do was to create kind of a guide to lead you through this world and then make your own decisions, about what's happening and how, what you can take from it to optimize, you know, your own healthspan.

Peter Bowes: 9:51

You're right. It is sometimes overwhelming. Having gone through this process, just looking at healthspan as a concept, and you mentioned earlier about scientists not always being the best people to tell their own stories. Do you think Healthspan as a as an idea, as a vision is something that resonates with the general public yet?

David Donnelly: 10:11

No, I don't. I think that I think a lot of this needs, you know, they need some Hollywood spin on this. I think to make it a little bit more easier to interpret. I think for a lot of people, including myself, when I first got started, it does seem like the world is kind of this, this, this particular sector is filled with a lot of jargon, but it's getting there. for sure. I mean, you're hearing it more and more often. I think it takes time for these kind of things to kind of seep their way and to, you know, the public. but it, the reason why I think it's so important to distinguish is, like I said, so that if you're reading about something of one of these radical approaches that you understand. These people are solving different sets of problems. If you're a scientist, you're going in trying to answer a question. They're asking different questions. And it's just that's why it's so important to say, okay, like you've got this person on this one side, you know, the Brian Johnson's, which I think they're raising a lot of awareness about this. They, you know, despite his critics, he's raising a lot of awareness about longevity as a whole and about these things that you could do to improve your life. That's not necessarily the same as, you know, the, let's say, biohacking another term or let's say what they're doing at the Buck Institute. you know, these are different kind of different approaches to, to different, different problems that are all, I think unfortunately lumped, lumped together in the same bucket too often.

Peter Bowes: 11:34

You've made a film that has a very, just purely from a filmmaking perspective here has a very futuristic look, a very futuristic feel with the graphics and the clicky sound effects and that kind of thing that you use when you you put captions on screen. Was that deliberate to give it that sci fi feel, even though I think at the end of the. The couple of hours, hour and a half. The message is that this mostly isn't science fiction. As you've explained that most of these scientists are working on. Pretty solid research is going to help us here and now, and isn't about the sci fi aspect of this that some of the immortalists look at it, but that most scientists are still pretty grounded in terms of what's going to help us today and tomorrow.

David Donnelly: 12:15

Yeah, it was 1,000% deliberate. you know, we do have that science fiction narrative storyline as a thread that goes throughout the film. And there's so much stuff when it comes to science fiction that's dystopian and we see a lot of it. And I wanted to flip the script a little bit and let people know that this is an exciting time to be alive, that we're living through despite all of the, you know, the chaos that we're constantly seeing with world events and with a lot of negative impact of technology. the, the breakthroughs that are occurring are going to have dramatic consequences for, you know, our children and our children's children. And actually we're not prepared for it, which as you watch the film, you can see that, at the end of the first act, I was already convinced as a filmmaker. I was like, you know, after a first initial, round of interviews, okay, the revolution is, is real. This thing is really happening. I didn't expect to get to that conclusion so quickly in the process. which started to raise some other really interesting questions, which is, well, what happens next? Are we, are we ready for this complete paradigm shift and the way we approach aging? How does this get introduced? We have to rethink in many ways what it means to be alive. And we're way behind the ball on, on, on getting ahead of the science that's now moving very, very quickly. Everything from retirements to education to some of these other problems with mental health that if we don't start dealing with, what we're going to have is a lot of people who are going to be living longer, that are miserable. There's so many things that started to go through my mind and that I was inspired to think about by the cast, who were raising some really interesting questions. And so we really focus on that. What happens next in the film as well? So it is driven by science, but there's also very much a humanistic angle to the story.

Peter Bowes: 14:18

It's fascinating to hear how it impacted you. And I'm just curious, at some point, did you feel were your emotions frustration with sometimes what you're hearing from the scientists and maybe their attitudes or invigoration? What was the overall feel that you had coming away from? I know they're all very different, clearly, in terms of what they're doing, but is there any sort of emotion that you can think of that kept coming back to you?

David Donnelly: 14:42

I mean, absolutely, I was incredibly frustrated through through the, I'd say the first couple of years of making the film. And I think the primary reason is that these scientists couldn't agree on anything. You know, they couldn't agree on what aging is. They couldn't agree on what causes it. They couldn't agree on. The only thing they could agree on was that this is a revolution and that this is happening and that this is this is something that historically we're going to look back on and say in this time period that we're living through, we started to, have an approach towards aging that completely puts us in a different, trajectory as a species. I think the anger was really, I was getting a lot of pressure. The producers of both doctors, retired plastic surgeon and a psychiatrist and neuroscientist. And it was really important throughout the process to retain scientific integrity. I'm not a scientist. And so that was a very challenging task for me to work with. You know, this very intelligent group of people that are, very well trained in medicine and in these different and also in the biotech sector and know the language and be able to weave a narrative through that and still stay honest when it comes to the science and also to make make it timely enough, but at the same time, not, you know, the science is happening. It's changing so quickly that we wanted to stick to the fundamentals so that we know that these things are always going to be true, even if you watch it five years from now.

Peter Bowes: 16:19

Exactly. But and that is the area that having done this podcast for nearly ten years, it's the fundamentals and the disagreements that still prevail between these scientists over. Is fat good for us? Is fat not good for us? Cholesterol, too much, too little protein, too much protein, too little protein, carbs. I mean, all of these basics that mostly to do with diet. In that respect, they still don't agree. And it makes me frustrated that they don't agree and that we clearly don't fully understand that kind of science when others are pushing the boundaries with other aspects of, of longevity science that could potentially benefit us in the future. Which makes me even more skeptical of that when we still don't understand that the basics of something like diet.

David Donnelly: 17:08

Yeah. I mean, if you read the news one day and it says, you know, eat tomatoes, and then the next day it says don't eat tomatoes. it can get very confusing. So we had more than 100 hours of footage that we acquired throughout the course of this process. The film is only 88 minutes long, so you can see how much we had to sift through in order to come to these conclusions and to try to, to make it, interesting and, and also educational at the same time to to a broadest possible audience. it's really important that this information gets out there. And that's what's really driving the mission behind the film. And America, for example, one of the primary indicators for how long you'll live is your zip code. And that's, of course, that has to do with wealth, but it also has to do with environments, access to certain types of food, lifestyle. And when I learned that, I just, I felt that was very, very tragic. And, you know, if you were going to be dystopian about it, then you would say there's going to be some kind of like disposition effect where there's like these superhumans. And then like the people, you know, something like Elysium. But then, you know, if you actually look at the history of how technology, kind of works its way down, look at cell phones, how cell phones initially were the huge phones like the Michael Douglas had in Wall Street. And then they get smaller and smaller and eventually they become affordable to everybody. They become ubiquitous, I do believe that we'll be able to democratize longevity. How long that takes and how quickly can we do it? I don't know that, but I do know that these companies are motivated by wanting to get these treatments and products to the widest possible group of people possible. And that's, you know, that's driving that capitalist mindset is what's driving that ability to scale. So there's some hope in that system, even if there's kind of an ugly period along the way.

Peter Bowes: 19:04

Yeah, I think that's really interesting. And in fact, you make the point towards the end of the film that potentially we could be moving towards a world where there are those. There are two sets of people, one that benefit from longevity science and another set that clearly doesn't. And it is concerning to me that there are huge numbers of people around the world who don't even have clean water, whereas others in Silicon Valley are looking at all these weird and wonderful ways to potentially extend their lives and live better. And you see the huge gulf in terms of how people are benefiting from from modern science.

David Donnelly: 19:36

And the people that just don't want to, you know, get into it that just want to be completely natural. And that's, you know, that's great too. You know, people have their own choices. And if you look at the Blue Zones, for example, there's lots of examples of people that don't have access to the latest and greatest science that very rarely go to the doctors and that are living in older age. Of course, these are also kind of anomalies in the larger population. You know, if you against the population globally. But once again, it's like, you know, to each their own, but I think it is important at least that people have access to the information so that they can make an informed decision. And that's what's not happening right now. There's still a knowledge gap that is costing people, honestly their health.

Peter Bowes: 20:18

You make the point. You've made a point already in this interview about AI and its growing relevance to this kind of research. And I think it is clearly indisputable, isn't it, that scientific research is being accelerated multiple times over by the ability to use AI to analyze data. And would you agree that that is going to catapult this kind of research? I think much, much faster than we've ever seen before in terms of bringing in that data, analyzing it, and reaching a conclusion.

David Donnelly: 20:49

It blows me away. we did a screening at Cambridge not too long ago, and, a lot of young, young people were there, which was a kind of a different audience that we had at some of our initial screenings, especially at our premiere. And they were so excited about this as a field. And not only are they passionate about health already at a much younger age, you know, when I was in my 20s, I certainly was not trying to be healthy. I don't think different time, different culture. But, that was, that was kind of a surprise. The second part is that they're all starting these biotech companies. And a lot of it is fueled by what you can do with AI. the kind of, especially when it comes to what you can do with epigenetic programing, which is a fascinating field. Another part of this is also being able to evaluate polypharmaceutical effects. You know, if you're taking 15 different types of drugs, things can get very kind of complicated. Ai can be very helpful in figuring out the, you know, how are these drugs all impacting each other when you start, when they start to compound, which is a very tricky thing. And the virtual experiments, as I mentioned earlier, it goes on and on and on. The just the amount of data that it has, the ability to process all the scientific knowledge accumulated throughout history, you know, and the click of a button, it's just it's wild. And the applications we can already start seeing too with these. I mean, look what happened in the last couple of weeks alone when it comes to mRNA, you know, treatments for pancreatic cancer. It's every week something else is happening. And I just find that very exciting and inspiring.

Peter Bowes: 22:25

You mentioned there about screenings to different age groups. Did you have an age group in mind when you made the film. And whenever I do interviews like this, my age group in mind is everyone. But inevitably, when you do a film about living longer, living better, the audience tends to skew to older people, perhaps those mid-life who are beginning to turn a little bit gray, or seeing their parents or grandparents decline in health, and it suddenly dawns upon them that there will be an end one day, and that perhaps there is stuff that we can do to improve our our lives, but it does still tend to skew older. And I always try to strive towards a younger audience, not just for the the commercial reasons to attract a younger audience, which I think is what television is obsessed with at the moment, but an audience that if they can learn from this research and apply the the science to themselves, it the time to do it is when you're young and in your 20s and in your 30s.

David Donnelly: 23:22

Oh, I think it's great that you're doing that. And we definitely tried to keep the film open to as broad of an audience as possible. I don't think at all it's limited to people that are older. It's of course applicable to people that want to make those changes for obvious reasons. But it's also about what kind of future are we building. And, you know, can we can we live forever as an interesting question. But I think a more a more interesting question is, can we build a world where people want to live forever? And that is very much interesting to younger audiences, because this is the world that they're going to be living in. And that's a lot of responsibility, not just on us, but also on the scientific community. And of course, they can't handle all of that. Their job is to be the scientist. But culturally a lot has to change. And they know that. And I get really excited to have conversations with them and see all this work that they're doing. and the big ideas that they have, and they're people that are trying to come up with drugs that can prevent cancer. There are people that are trying to use epigenetic programing to solve incurable diseases. It's just wild. And, you know, I think the energy behind this revolution gives them the the momentum to not only believe that it's possible, but also, you know, makes it kind of like, yeah, this, we can do this. Let's go and start a company around it and devote the next chapter of their life into solving these problems. You know, there's the fire in their eyes. And, that, that I found incredibly motivating to be around.

Peter Bowes: 25:40

How did you deal with the, the more controversial areas? And I'm thinking of the individuals like David Sinclair, who is it's, I think it's fair to say in the last couple of years has been surrounded by a lot of controversy. You include him in the film. What was your approach to that?

David Donnelly: 25:58

Very delicately. the way that we handled it was to assemble information and to let people know and let people know various opinions and to make up their own minds. Like as a filmmaker, I don't have an agenda pro or against. A lot of the controversies that are happening in the world for many reasons. The primary reason is something that I learned early on from Dr Thomas Lewis, who is kind of like our guide throughout history in the film, and also one of the producers. And that is when you're living through a scientific revolution, you don't know how it's going to end. If you look back historically and how they viewed people that we now look back on as visionaries, and whether it's Copernicus or Newton, people thought these individuals were crazy, and a lot of times they risked their lives to bring these ideas forth and to document them. It's really easy to dismiss the people that are making these radical claims. But I mean, a lot of the stuff that's even happening right now, I think would look like magic to people even just a couple of decades ago. So, you know, we're not a judge and jury on any of that stuff. We are is just an organizer of information into a way to where the audience can understand it and try to inform them enough and give them the fundamentals and kind of the vernacular, introduce them to the characters, and let people make their own decisions and do their own research after they watch the film and continue their own longevity journey. and however they want, but hopefully having, a little bit of, more perspective, you know, to be able to do that.

Peter Bowes: 27:39

You mentioned the immortalists in the film. We've talked about it a little bit just now, but you didn't pursue that angle in any great depth. Was that your decision because you felt it was it was going too far or I'm just curious why you didn't pursue that a little bit more.

David Donnelly: 27:56

Well, I'll tell you, like I said earlier, we have more than 100 hours of footage. And so we got it. We got anything that you see in the film. There's a lot more that we filmed that just, you know that we didn't put in there. But when it came to the Immortalists, I think Doctor Eric Verdin has a great quote in the film. I think he says something like, you know, from a longevity scientists perspective, if you know, you want to be an immortals, then, you know, I think the best way for you to do that is to go to church.

Peter Bowes: 28:23

Yes, he did say that. Yeah, I like that.

David Donnelly: 28:25

Yeah. But like that, you know, got to separate that from the science. And I think that's a kind of a separate story. we mentioned it.

Peter Bowes: 28:32

That's what I'm getting at that I agree with you. I think it is, it's a story, but but probably a separate one.

David Donnelly: 28:37

And I think less, less interesting than the one that, that I chose to tell because this isn't a new idea. There's, you know, whether it's the Holy Grail or whether it's the Epic of Gilgamesh. We've been telling that story since the beginning of our of our origins. So that to me is not necessarily an original idea as, as much as, you know, how close are we to getting a little bit further along and then one step at a time? We introduced the concept of escape velocity, with which, of course, within the sector everyone knows about, but I don't I still don't think the average person understands, you know what that means and what that would potentially mean if we reach that point and why, you know, billionaires are dumping so much money to try to get to that point. so it's, we touch upon some of these elements, but I think the core of the story is really comes back to the fundamentals and letting people know that this is a really exciting time to, to be alive and your genes are not your destiny. And there's things that you can do on a regular basis to improve your healthspan and your quality of life.

Peter Bowes: 29:46

One area that you did delve into that I think most average people would immediately say, yes, I get that totally is social isolation and loneliness, which as as a field of research in the last 2 or 3 years has has really blossomed, I think, in terms of the the public understanding of that as an issue of something that can actually physically affect our lives and perhaps ultimately, tragically, in some cases, lead to death in terms of its relationship with physical ailments. And that's I don't know what you think, but I was probably something you weren't thinking about at the beginning of this process, that you would be talking about loneliness in relation to human longevity.

David Donnelly: 30:28

Yeah. It was not like we kind of scripted that as a concept when we set out making this. It was just something that kind of kept coming up. And, you know, when you're looking through thousands of pages of transcripts and you start to identify some of these patterns, then across various fields, like, okay, this is something that people have to start thinking about. And I, that's really interesting to me because, you know, you've got the biomarker revolution that happened. We've got Doctor Steve Horvath in the film. Horvath clock. We can start to quantify biological aging with DNA methylation. And then now there's different tools that we can start to do that with. But before that, we didn't have those tools available. But now we can quantify age in that way. It's not perfect, but it's really informative. Right? Well, something like loneliness, it's intangible. the some of these, how do you what does it look like? How do you like. Of course, there's, there's the element of being by yourself, but that's not really loneliness. There's a lot of people that are having loneliness issues and they're surrounded by people all day long. And we don't have a language for that yet. And, there's not these, this vocabulary or these tests where we can kind of quantify and see if it's at dangerous levels. That was really interesting to me because what we're seeing is that we're going to be getting a lot more of this. And now that we do know how dangerous it is to our health, we don't know exactly how it works, but we know that loneliness is the equivalent of smoking a pack of cigarettes a day in some cases. Well, that that's like a that should be like a red alert. We should we, because that's something that if it's really harming people at that level, which it is, there needs to be much more awareness than there is. We can also look at Japan as kind of a glimpse into our future. We filmed in Japan, and when we filmed in Tokyo, we filmed at a nursing home to where they're utilizing robots to offset the the labor shortage that they have. They they're aging out at a level to where there's not enough young people to take care of them. And so they use these robots and pet robots and they kind of are like walking, you know, like a little robot dog is walking around and people are petting it and looking. I'm like, this is just wild. It's just like, you know, this is so wild. And then the robot comes and dances and sings and leads them in dances and stuff, and they get excited to see it. And when we interviewed some of the people on the staff, like they were like, they loved. They love these robots. You know, they, it brings them joy. And then you got to start thinking like, okay, is this. Is this a good thing? is it a bad thing? We just there's not enough data on it, but we do know that it's a problem that's so bad that we have to start exploring every possible option. You know, can is it a long term solution or is it like. Of course, it'd be better if you know, their grandkids or some kids from the local university were to come in and play cards with them or something? Of course. But I mean, is that scalable? Like, I don't know, but it is. It really was something that I think needs a lot more attention.

Peter Bowes: 33:36

It's probably an entirely new documentary, but I we're just at the beginning of that, I think, and we're just beginning to open that door to the the possibilities, but also potential issues. We're all well aware of the social media problems, lots of litigation going on at the moment in terms of how social media is affecting young people, especially, and we're really just beginning to understand it. On the other hand, as you imply, some people are making friends with Chat GTP and actually finding something that's that's valuable in that it's, you know, it's a difficult one to, to get, but I think it's here and it's, it's, I think it's only going to engulf our lives even more, for better or worse.

David Donnelly: 34:15

Well, I think what's more terrifying is that if you look at the demographics of Japan, the United States has similar proportions. And the baby boomer population that is now starting to reach an age to where there's not enough people to take care of them. However, we're at a massive, larger scale. So Japan is small enough to where it can it can actually implement and try to find solutions because the population is smaller. This is this is already hitting America and it's going to get worse. And so these next couple of years, it's, it's just going to explode if we don't start dealing with it. And with all of the attention that we have on all these different areas of health. I think that there needs to be a huge push from the public and also from the private sector, to really start getting a grasp on this thing, because if we don't, then it's it's going to be something that it's going to be hard to come back from if we don't get a grip on it now.

Peter Bowes: 35:12

Yeah. Interesting. You posed the question several times during the film; What is aging? And a number of the experts that you speak to address that? Did you come to an understanding yourself as to what your preferred definition of what is aging is?

David Donnelly: 35:31

no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna butcher any kind of possible response that I could have there. I know it seems I spent now more than four years digging into this world. Everybody has their own kind of variation, you know, their own kind of trademarked way of explaining it. Some of the responses that I've gotten are quite complex. Some of the easier, shorter responses, I think, you know, aren't that informative. I like to believe that it's a compound of different things happening at the same time versus just kind of one root cause. But, I do love the way that David Sinclair describes, you know, like a scratched CD and then being able to, potentially kind of, you know, fix that repair that the, you know, the DNA on that CD and this whole possibility when it comes to epigenetic reprograming. But of course, as Dr Verdin says, there's, it's not just one thing. It's a compilation of all these different things. And that's why you got to study all of it. I do believe that it can be slowed down and that the onset can be delayed. That is something I, I believe in after after being around these brilliant scientists for this extended period.

Peter Bowes: 36:47

And taking the dilemma in terms of the definition a little further, defining aging as a disease or the disease that is ultimately leading to all the problems that will lead to our decline in later years. Defining aging itself as the disease is even, I think, for a lot of people, even more difficult to get your head around. And a lot of the major bodies, the FDA doesn't acknowledge that kind of definition. Where do you stand on that one?

David Donnelly: 37:17

Yeah. So this is a this is where we get into, you know, the stigma versus the science. There's obviously a huge movement for aging gracefully, which I think is very important. Self-image and knowing that there's nothing wrong with aging and not alienating, you know, billions of people around the globe and having this ageist kind of philosophy around it, which I think is the fear of people start to say that aging is a disease, because then they'll believe that, well, if you're old, you must have some kind of disease then, and you know, and that they're sick, even if they're completely healthy just because they're older. This is tricky because it comes down to semantics. The reason why I think the classification of aging as disease is important really comes down to funding. Because right now and Dr Richard Miller, who does amazing work at University of Michigan, really breaks this down in the film. You know, if you're trying to be if you want to be a scientist and you want you have to follow the money, right? Because you need to do your research. So let's say you want to get into cancer, lots of money in cancer research, let's say when again, dementia, lots of money and dementia research. Well, if you want to go into aging, it's not as specific because there's not as much kind of emotion associated with it. That's direct. Because we don't if somebody got sick, maybe of the results of aging because they got cancer or dementia, they don't look at that as the result of aging. They look at it as whatever illness that they got. So as a result, aging does not have as much funding as it should. So if they were to classify aging, if the FDA was to classify aging as disease, then suddenly now I think that would open a lot more doors to funding to get to the root causes of all these other problems that, you know, have a lot more funding. And that's the point and the argument of the back and forth. But, I think like I said earlier, there needs to be some Hollywood spin on this and bring some really good marketers into this and think of some different terms that, you know, I think are less offensive to large amounts of people.

Forever Young Film: 39:16

Getting old is not something that I want to do.

Peter Bowes: 39:20

There was one quote. It was actually very close to the beginning of the film. It was James Johnson who says this that stuck with me. And it certainly resonated with with my feelings about this longevity space.

Forever Young Film: 39:32

I asked when they estimated that I would die. They said 74. You're full of it. I'm not going to die when I'm 74.

Peter Bowes: 39:42

"If it were known by the general population what is known by scientists. I think a lot more people will be taking action to preserve their lives." I sometimes describe that sentiment as all the research could stop now, and if only we applied what we understand with a firm degree of certainty about longevity science, food, exercise, sleep, the power of social connections, all of those core pillars. If everyone applied the science that we understand. I think you could probably extend healthspan for great swathes of people around the world by maybe ten or even 15 years.

David Donnelly: 40:21

I agree with you and Dr Johnson is a producer, is the producer of the film. He has an incredibly inspirational story. He has heart issues. He is diabetic. And he was told by the time he was 70 that, you know, hey, you're not going to be living much longer than this. And he pretty much told the doctor, .. and as a retired plastic surgeon and a biotech investor and someone that's really devoted his life, he's really a pioneer in the entire longevity revolution. He's funded so many different ideas and studies and people and companies to get the word out there and to kind of accelerate the process. And, you know, this is somebody that when I go to California, you know, I work out with him and it's not something that I knew was even kind of possible to be that healthy at that age. When I was younger, I didn't grow up having that as kind of a, a model of, hey, this is what life could be like in your 70s and your 80s. That's, you know, I'm from Kentucky, you know, I grew up in, you know, in the Midwest. I was not exposed to this kind of, level of, possibility. but he's dedicated and disciplined and curious, but, it's, I found it, and it really helped me have a new perspective on what it could possibly mean to grow older. And, and it's a very interesting and only part of the story is what you see in the film. But there's much more there.

Peter Bowes: 41:57

And that really brings me to what was going to be my next question in terms of having you yourself gone through this process, this three year filmmaking process. Do you run your own life in a different way now, or do you have different attitudes towards your daily routine, your exercise, social connections, what you eat, and all of those core pillars and your own vision for the future? Has that changed.

David Donnelly: 42:20

180 180 degree turn? Making a film is like a kind of a hurricane process. You know, especially the way that we make documentaries is not, you know, we don't go in there knowing what the story is going to be and then try to find little clues and ways to make, you know, make it interesting, which is how a lot of documentaries are made. Now we really have an exploratory process. We don't know where the science is going to take us, which makes it exciting. I don't want to make a documentary if I know what the ending is going to be, so.

Peter Bowes: 42:48

It's exciting and refreshing. I should say, especially given the media market that we're in at the moment.

David Donnelly: 42:54

Yeah. Well, I think I'm, I think I'm kind of a that's not really how the normal process is. The documentary market is going through its own, I think, disruption right now. But, I learned so much throughout the process and, you know, there was so much travel involved and all the stress and pressure of making a film or making anything kind of, of this magnitude. And at some point I was like, man, I really need to start applying some of what I've learned in this process. And I got my blood work done, which I realized to be so important, which I was not getting done regularly. And I was like, oh, okay, you know, I'm in my 40s, I'm going to the gym, whatever. I'm healthy. And then the, I think what's interesting about the way that longevity scientists look at, let's say, blood work. It's from a completely different perspective then, you know, medicine 1.0 or 2.0. And so when I got my first round of blood work done, when I share it with longevity scientists, you know, it's very clear that sure, maybe I was normal, right? But in America, especially normal might be sick. Normal does not mean healthy. And that was mind blowing for me to look at this and say, okay, am I optimizing, where I should be for, you know, my age and my health and I made changes and developed a protocol around, you know, what I learned from the film. And I'm very fortunate to have access to a lot of amazing, doctors and scientists. I've made major changes in my life in the last, last couple of years. As a result of that, I will say the one that I still struggle with the most is the social connection, and I think I'm not alone in that. I'm very lucky to have a group of friends since I've had, since college. we're all different parts of the world. We all have, you know, demanding jobs. It's so hard to kind of get together with, you know, your, your tribe of close friends, even family. To get to see them regularly sometimes can be very challenging, but I do not prioritize it in a different way to where I say like, look, we this is something we have to do. It's, you know, it's not like, you know, it's got to be prioritized. Dr. Sarah Santano, who's in the film, you know, considers, you know, social connection, the fifth vital sign. And we were so focused on investments when it comes to stock markets or something else, but friendship and relationships have to be looked at as the same kind of level of investment, if of course, more than that. and, and so that is an area that I've been really trying to work on more since making the film.

Peter Bowes: 45:39

And it all starts with awareness, doesn't it? The fact that you are now aware of the social connection importance in your life. I was in Washington, D.C. just last week working and arranged to meet a friend who I haven't seen for some time. A good friend, long lifetime friend. We met for lunch. He lives and works there, and he actually said to me on the day that he looked at his calendar that morning, oh, I've got this to do, this to do, and then I've got to go for lunch with Peter. But he he'd made time still to do our lunch, I think with the same mindset that you're talking about having come to a realization that it's important to see people and to enjoy that sort of downtime and whatever you get out of that social connection, that you've got to make tough decisions. Sometimes that you do another hour's work or you you see a friend.

David Donnelly: 46:23

Yeah. I think, you know, if you look at it, everyone knows that diet and exercise are good, right? We now have obviously know a lot more because of biomarkers. And our, the data is can be much more specific. And we know just how much diet and exercise can impact. Same with sleep. But social connectivity somewhere just hasn't got prioritized as much. And that has to start changing. And how do you do that? Because you're fighting against the culture in many ways. You know, you look at your phone, before you know it, two hours has gone by. Even if you go out to, you know, to a restaurant or to a coffee shop, people are still going to be staring at their screens. It's a challenge. It's a huge challenge. and so yeah, you have to be aware of it. And, but you have to look at it like, like diet, the same level as diet and exercise. It's got to be right up there. social connection, diet, sleep, exercise purpose and meaning, you know, all five of those have to have the same, the same level of attention, I think, or else there's going to be fighting against, you know, the, the downside of not having one of those.

Peter Bowes: 47:25

Yeah. Super important. Just in closing, I like the way that you've made a film, but that's clearly not the end of the story. The story continues and you're continuing the story with your Substack and your YouTube and your podcast, which in a way that not many filmmakers do, it is often the end of the story. Move on to the next project. Is that important to you?

David Donnelly: 47:45

It's incredibly important. And I've never taken this this route before. And I was really moved by a lot of the responses that we got from people that watched the film, early on, as well as from our premiere. And, I started to realize that people had so many questions that they would walk out of the theater. well, hey, like, well, you know, what's next? Like, or I have questions about this or where can I learn more? And as you know, people that watch the film will learn. There's a lot of distrust out there. The sector is very fragmented. We want to become we already are a trusted source, I believe, to a growing number of people that are looking to continue their journey. Hopefully, having watched the film as kind of a launching pad, wherever they are in their longevity journey. We've got stuff that's really scientific and deep dives. We've got stuff that's very basic. But, you know, it's, it's all from a group of people, including many of the people that are involved and that you see in the film, from the transcripts that we've accumulated throughout time, really trying to give people the science of longevity with a healthy dose of humanism so that there's always that perspective associated with it. And, you know, without the buyer supplements now too, which, which unfortunately, we see a lot of there's a lot of great information out there. It's just typically that there's an ad and, you know, an ad in between it. And right now we are obviously ad free. So.

Peter Bowes: 49:19

Yeah, exactly. Well, look, David, it's been a fascinating conversation. It's a great achievement, the film and I wish you all the best with it.

David Donnelly: 49:27

Well, thank you very much for having me. I really enjoy your show and it's been a pleasure.

Forever Young Film: 49:31

I'm planning to live forever. And so far, so good.

Peter Bowes: 49:39

The Live Long podcast is a healthspan media production. I'm Peter Bowes. You can contact me through our website, www.livelongpodcast.com where you'll also find show notes for this episode.

DISCLAIMER: 49:51

This podcast is for informational, educational, and entertainment purposes only. We do not offer medical advice. If you have health concerns of any kind or you are considering adopting a new diet or exercise regime, you should first consult your doctor.